Punishment Due

"Snuze: Needs another Swede" (markg) 05/07/2019 at 10:43 • Filed to: None

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I see yet another story on the FP about a service department abusing a customer car.

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This seems to be a recurring theme lately and it got me thinking - what is the appropriate compensation to the customer?

I think we can all agree that we can start with the need to make the customer whole again. If they had totaled the car the customer gets a new car, if they had grenaded the engine the customer gets a new engine, etc.  

But what about a situation like the one above? If the vehicle isn’t obviously harmed (no dents, dings, scratches, etc.), and still runs and drives as it should (i.e. clutch still works, transmission shifts fine , no weird noises or other issues) what should the dealer be on the hook to the customer for? Judging from the comments, a lot of people are saying “ replace the clutch” with a lot of people also suggesting replacing “ other driveline components.” But which ones, and why? I mean if the car is still runing driving like normal why would you just throw good parts after good?

I have 2 anecdotal stories to highlight my question. First , my sister learned to drive stick on an Acura RSX Type S and the clutch lasted over 200k miles. The transmission is still going strong. C onversely, a number of   early Cruzes were smoking clutches by 10k miles under normal use by people who knew how to drive stick. Dealerships wouldn’t warranty the part until the issue was pressed and it was discovered there was a batch of clutches with a manufacturing defect. My point is that I don’t think “learning to drive stick” automatically equals clutch destruction, just like there could be an issue that causes even an experieced user’s clutch to fail early. T here’s a lot of variables to consider.

So is clutch replacement really necessary or warranted? And if that’s the route we go, how far do we take it? What about tearing down the gearbox for inspection or outright replacing it? And if so, why stop there, why not the differential(s) or axles? Brakes? Rack and pinion? Bushings? Shocks? Seats? The misusers have affected every part of the car!

Also, if one pursues that route, what dealership is going to do the work ? I certainly wouldn’t want the dealer that violated my trust and potentially damaged my car in the first place to do it.

I also think the punishment should fit the crime, so I don’t think they owe them a new car, or a Ford GT or something outlandish.  But I do think the dealership owes the customer something, I ’m just not sure what that something is . So how does one determine the punishment due in a case such as the Focus RS where the damage isn’t exactly evident? I’m genuinely curious to hear Oppos thoughts on the matter.

benjrblant > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 10:50

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This seems to be a recurring theme lately

While I don’t doubt that this happens often, the media seems to love this kind of bad press. Readers love to hate, media loves to roll in the clicks, etc etc.

I briefly worked at a dealership and I don’t doubt that this happens relatively often, but damn if the media doesn’t love to come down hard on it. Rightfully so? I ncorrectly so? I can’t decide.

Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 10:55

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Yeah this one is pretty grey. I’d probably say new clutch and maybe Ford extends the customer’s warranty or offers them a couple years of service contract for free. Given this is Ford, I assume there is another dealer in the area that could do the work.

For Sweden > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:00

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Justice will be illusive until we ban the dealership sales model.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > benjrblant 05/07/2019 at 11:03

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Agreed. On one hand I suspect it does happen more often than you’d think. But a lot of people ge t away with it.

I think the big difference is that dashcams have given these stories a new dimension and why they’re click generators. It’s not some he-said, she-said story of “ ol’ Billy came out and swears the dealer abused his Camero because he found some rubber flecks stuck on the rear fender and he doesn’t do burnouts so how else could they have gotten there?” You get to watch the even happen in real time, the evidence is practically incontrivertible. The other aspect is, in this day and age, how can a dealer deny the evidience? It’s not here-say and conspiracy like my example above, it’s like no shit this is real video evidence.

It reminds me of seeing “ hidden camera” expose stories on shows li ke 20/20.

As for the media slamming the dealership, I don’t know what the right level of “slamming” is, which kind of goes back to my question about what the proper punishment is. Obviously there needs to be accountability - I hope they fired the tech(s) in question at t he very least . But I don’t think that means the whole dealership needs to go out of business and all the employees there lose their live li hoods because one or two techs did something stupid while the other 5 or 10 or 20 were doing their jobs.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Akio Ohtori - RIP Oppo 05/07/2019 at 11:04

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I was thinking maybe extended warranty, to include clutch.  And if the customer had previously purchased an extended warranty, refund them.  And you’re right, another dealership can do the work but I don’t know how that would work since the dealers are franchises and I imagine corporate doesn’t like to get involved in this sort of thing unless they have to.  

shop-teacher > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:04

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I think the dealership should pay for a zero deductible extended warranty through Ford.  That way, if anything does break prematurely, the customer will be covered.  They can also take it to another dealer!

Snuze: Needs another Swede > For Sweden 05/07/2019 at 11:06

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This could happen at an independent shop as well. While I agree that the dealership model needs to go, I don’t think this problem is explicitly a dealership problem.  

Under_Score > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:08

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He was definitely called last at graduation. 

Arrivederci > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:15

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Good question. Immediately, I’d jump at “new clutch,” but to your point, why replace something that’s probably still just fine. I might ask for some sort of IOU for free labor to replace the clutch that’s redeemable  for X years as I’d plan on upgrading the clutch at some point anyway.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:16

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I think some kind of credit for future service visits and a car detail and I would be okay. I taught two teenage boys to drive stick in my mazda like 10 years ago and the car was and is still fine despite jolts and stalling. You really have to roast the clutch hard to ruin it.

Censored > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:20

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At some point prior to Justice becoming standard in these situations, customers need to be aware of what is and isn’t abuse. This case is abuse and should be taken care of as such. However a lot of the stories on the FP about this aren’t in my opinion. Specifically the one last week about the lady who “stole” her truck back. She was and is 100% in the wrong. When you drop your vehicle off for service, it is highly likely that a tech will drive you vehicle in a “real world” scenario . This includes traffic, starts and stops, interstate blasts etc... Though it may be weird to see your vehicle being driven by another, remember that is what you are paying them to do. It is incredibly hard troubleshoot and diagnose what you haven’t experienced.

HammerheadFistpunch > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:26

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Not to mention that I wouldn’t want a dealership to tear into a factory component unless it’ s necessary . My experience has been that factory assembled will always be more reliable than dealer re-asse mbled.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Censored 05/07/2019 at 11:32

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Absolutely agreed. I actually didn’t get a chance to read that one, I’ll have to go back and take a look. And I would have no problem with a tech taking my car out for a diagnostic drive. I don’t think most reasonable people would. But blatantly teaching someone to drive stick in your car is wrong, as is joyriding for the sake of it, things like that.

As an aside I remember when I was a kid we had this GMC Safari minivan and one day it started occasionally going into limp home mode. You’d shut it off, wait a bit, start it back up and it was fine for a while, like anywhere from hours to a couple days, but we could never figure out what was causing it . We took it to the dealer a couple times and they could never replicate the problem, but they were also only driving it 10 minutes. My dad finally took it in and worked out a deal with the dealership service manager - they gave us a loaner and one of the techs got the van for a whole week to commute in (he lived about 40 miles away from the dealership). Sure enough, about the 3rd day he had it, it went into limp mode. Turns out it was a damaged wiring connector inside the transmission.

Chariotoflove > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:34

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Can you have the clutch inspected by a trusted indie shop for excessive wear or damage? If so, do it at the dealer cost. If it’s okay, get a gift card for some oil changes  from the dealer to compensate for your time and effort.  If it’s not okay, then take your data and demand that new clutch. 

Snuze: Needs another Swede > HammerheadFistpunch 05/07/2019 at 11:34

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In the Navy we had a saying for this:

“If it ain’t broke, fix it ‘till it is!”

Censored > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:40

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The problem is that reasonable people aren’t loud, thus don’t get the headlines. Thus why we will need well defined boundaries and expectations because the assumed ones will no longer work in the world of twitterbookgram .

HammerheadFistpunch > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:46

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90% of the issues I’ve had with my land cruiser were due to “fixing” factory work. Either my work or a shop’s work.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > Censored 05/07/2019 at 11:47

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True to a point, though when reasonable people “get loud” they often suddenly viewed as unreasonable, or the story is at least spun as such. But regardless, reasonableness doesn’t get nearly as much attention as “I HAVE DASH CAM FOOTAGE OF A DEALER TECH EATING A HAM SANDWICH ON THE HOOD OF MY FORD FIESTA.... I DEMAND A NEW FORD GT AS RETRIBUTION!!!!”

Tangentially related, I was having a discussion earlier today with a friend who’s still living at home and starting to look for his first apartment. He asked me how I picked my first apartment because all the places he has looked at have tons of negative reviews.

So I took a look at some of them and half are absolutely ludicrious. Like, people complaining about how the management mistreated them and their dog when the apartment website clearly says NO PETS! I mean, I just don’t even know what to say.  

Mercedes Streeter > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 11:50

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I’d say this one is pretty easy: The dealership should either give a..

1) Free zero deductible extended warranty .
or
2) A free clutch replacement in the future.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > HammerheadFistpunch 05/07/2019 at 11:53

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Yeah, been there, done that.

My old man, a big Chevy guy, always preaches “SS. ” Not “Super Sport”, but “Strictly Stock. ” As I’m getting older and my patience to screw with stuff on my daily drivers is deminishing, I’m finding myself agreeing more and more.

Spanfeller is a twat > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 12:05

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New tires and alignment 

BigBlock440 > Censored 05/07/2019 at 12:22

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The truck one, she’d probably have been fine with it if the guy driving it wasn’t tailgating, weaving through traffic, and driving like an asshole.  It also doesn’t specify what the service was.  You wouldn’t expect them to have to drive your vehicle for an oil change.

Censored > BigBlock440 05/07/2019 at 13:47

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She stole a vehicle that wasn’t in her legal possession. Regardless of her source of anger, she was in the wrong.

https://jalopnik.com/woman-sees-dealership-employee-running-errands-in-her-t-1834175004

She claimed it was tailgating, but to me the included photo doesn't confirm this. This claim also came after the fact as an explanation of her wrong doing. 

BigBlock440 > Censored 05/07/2019 at 15:37

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How was it not in her legal possession ?  Do you work at a dealership and think it’s your right to be able to take a customer’s car on a joyride?

Censored > BigBlock440 05/07/2019 at 16:03

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I don’t work at a dealership, also wouldn’t leave a vehicle at a dealership that I didn’t explicitly trust (lucky to have friends in service at a few dealerships). If there is something wrong with the car, the mechanic is going to have to drive it to find it. When you drop the car off, the service agreement will 9x out of 10 have a clause of their staff driving the vehicle for diagnostics. Once you leave the vehicle with them, it is under their watch until they turn it back over to you. Just as if the vehicle was stolen from their lot, it’s on their insurance not yours. Thus the vehicle was under their watch when she “stole” it back.

My entire point is that there needs to be clearer communications with the customers as to what is going to happen with their vehicle while its in for service. Assuming that the customer understands that their car will have to likely be driven in “real world” situations isn’t working anymore. I’m also not saying that the dealership is 100% in the right on the truck situation, but blindly saying that the lady is free of any wrong doing is incorrect.

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 16:30

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Free detail? Free service? Doesn’t need a clutch and I’m sure it’ll last a normal amount of time. Anything more than that is uncalled for. Fir ing the employees is also excessive when they didn’t actually damage anything and will just instill a culture a fear and make it an even worse place to work. They should be written up and learn from it though.

Might as well start suing the people that are behind speed bumps for ruining bushings and ball joints! Everyone wants something for free these days, especially from dealers. I bet if this was an indie we never would've heard anything about it.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 05/07/2019 at 17:27

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Firing the employees is also excessive when they didn’t actually damage anything

I would disagree with you on this point. While they didn’t physically damage the car, they damaged the relationship this customer has with the dealership. The car was there for service, not to be used as a driving school. There’s also the fact that this potentially damages the dealerships reputation, which could hurt sales and service, which affects all employees. Granted the dealer hasn’t been handling this as well as they could, but the techs created this situation in the first place.

Does that mean they deserve to be fired? I don’t know. And I’m not going to advocate one way or the other.

Everyone wants something for free these days, especially from dealers. I bet if this was an indie we never would’ve heard anything about it.

I have a bunch of thoughts here.

The article doesn’t actually state anywhere what the owner wants to get out of this. That’s actually why I asked the question. When your trust has been violated I think it’s natural to want some kind of payback or retribution, but in a case like this it’s can be hard to articulate what that actually is.

I also think the dealership hasn’t been helping their case with their lack of candor. I already touched on this above, but t he owner brought solid evidence and the dealer acknowledged it and said “okay, we’ll look at it” and then they ghosted the guy. They didn’t even go back to him and say “okay, we reviewed it, we think you’re over reacting. ” They just completely ignored it and I suspect simply hoped it would go away. I think back to your original point, if they had said sorry and offered him a detailing and/or some service, this would have been a non-issue.

Regarding independent shop vs. dealership I think you bring up an interesting point. Does this happen at independent shops? We don’t hear about it but is that because it’s not going on, or because independent shops are more likely to cop to it and work with the customer when caught because they can’t afford the loss in business. I don’t have any answers, but I do think it’s something worth considering.

Might as well start suing the people that are behind speed bumps for ruining bushings and ball joints!

Is this class action? Where do I sign up?

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/07/2019 at 17:45

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People make mistakes. Allow them the opportunity to learn from them. Where would any of us be without learning from our mistakes? A lot of dealership employees start their career pretty young, and are generally dumbasses like everyone else at 21-22 years old. That doesn’t make them bad people who need to be fired, particularly if it’s a first offense. I agree with your points, but what about salespeople treating customers poorly through shady sales tactics? Or inept service advisors causing all sorts of headaches because they can’t effectively communicate?

Admittedly I didn’t actually read the article. Jalopnik is clickbait garbage when it comes to stuff like this, blatantly ignoring facts in order to aggrandize the issue. So I don’t go there much and won’t give them the clicks for this shit.

That being said, it sounds like you’re talking about revenge. I’m not saying that’s what you mean, but that’s what it sounds like. Which made me think of when a significant other cheats on you, breaking your trust. That makes you want revenge, but it won’t actually fix anything and you aren’t actually owed anything. It’s a shitty situation for sure though. I’m not saying it’s the same thing, but there are similarities worth considering. I think they should compensate the client somehow, but a clutch is overkill and might introduce new issues. Completely agree that the dealership isn’t helping their own case. Most dealerships suck at communicating and empathy. Good communication, sincere empathy, and a gesture of g oodwill right from the start might have solved the issue.

As far as indie vs. dealer; it absolutely happens at both. I’ve worked both sides. I’ve maybe even used throttle a bit overzealously in my younger days. People are still people, no matter where they work, and people suck. But on the internet, especially jalopnik and placed like it , dealers are the devil and indies are god.

I wish! I'd  sign up in a heartbeat too!

Urambo Tauro > shop-teacher 05/07/2019 at 18:43

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Yeah, I think the most important part is that whatever work gets done in recompense, be done through a different dealer, to avoid any grudgingly- performed rush jobs.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 05/07/2019 at 21:37

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With regards to firing - being late to work is a teachable moment. Shitting where you eat (i.e. screwing with the customers stuff) is a little more serious , and grave mistakes have grave consequences. Again, I’m not trying to advocate one way or the other here - I was 21 once myself and did some dumb stuff and I certainly got cut some slack sometimes. I’m also not their boss so I’m sure there’s a ton of other factors to consider, but I would certainly more lenient if they were an otherwise good employee, and conversely more likely to give them the axe if they were a problem child. Basically it doesn’t affect me one way or the other but I can certainly see where there’d be a reason to fire them, but also see where they may be otherwise deserving of a break.

The cheating analogy is interesting and it’s one I couldn’t quite get out of my head, but also couldn’t quite articulate earlier. But when you said that, it clicked for me. As I’ve said, a lot of the comments are “replace the clutch,” “replace the axles and drive shafts,” etc. It’s like these people think this guy is owed a brand new car. And that kind of cuts right to the heart of the analogy - it’s like people want a “virgin” car. I don’t like to project or assign actions to people I don’t know, but I can assume if you’ve got a sports car, you’re going to drive the hell out of it. But you want to be the one to do that, not someone else. It’s like being in a relationship, you don’t want someone else fucking your S.O. , you want to be the one to fuck them .

So yeah, the revenge analogy makes a lot of sense here. Now, to run with this analogy, t he old trope is your S.O. cheats on you so you get revenge by sleeping with their best friend. So in this case, does that mean you get to go abuse the technician’s car? We live in an age of internet porn and revenge porn and all that. This guy posting this video... did we all just watch automotive revenge porn? Maybe we kind of did.

I’m really not advocating for one thing or the other here. I’m actually trying to separate out what is the difference between compensation and revenge. Unlike a relationship where you have to deal with messy feelings and emotions, messing with someones property is (somewhat) more clear cut and dry. You break my heart, I’m gonna cry; you break my new OLED TV, I want a new damn TV! In this case I do think the customer is owed something, I just don’t know what a reasonable compensation is.

Also agree with new clutch being overkill, and complicating things. Sometimes it’s best to leave factory assemblies alone. As I told HammerheadFistpunch, we had a saying in the Navy - “If it ain’t broke, fix it ‘ till it is!” Yay for planned maintenance scheduling!

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/08/2019 at 02:32

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Every individual and every circumstance is different and should be evaluated on a case by case basis. So yeah, we definitely don’t have all the info here, and neither do any of the other keyboard warriors on the front page.

But at the same time, how often is someone you sleep with a virgin when you meet them? No car is, I can promise you that, even if you buy it new. Unless you build it yourself. Di d the guy here even buy the car new?

Does sleeping with the best friend even qualify as getting recompense from the cheater? I wouldn’t think so. So not a perfect analogy. Cathartic for sure, but not necessarily even revenge, especially if the cheater never finds out. But it actually might do more harm than good by bringing that third person into the mix and potentially making them feel guilty after the fact. Or you’re sabotaging their friendship to get back at the cheater, but hurting an innocent bystander in the process.

Good call, 100% automotive revenge porn, as weird as it sounds.

I hear you. I don’t want to advocate for shitty dealers. That’s not my goal. Really I just try to provide industry insight so people have a better understanding of everyone else’s viewpoints in scenarios like this, where more often than not only the “victim’s” side is explained. More information is always better, right?

As for the TV analogy, nothing with the clutch was actually damaged. So that would be more like if your friend was bumming around at your house for a few days, tried plugging the HDMI cable into your OLED TV but had it the wrong way. He tried a few times, tried rotating it but it kept slipping out of his hand when trying to plug it in, and he just kept on trying to jam it in there. He finally got it, even though he was doing it wrong at first and pretty rough, especially as he grew more frustrated because he was missing GoT. But he didn’t actually damage anything. He just wasn’t as careful as you would’ve been. Does he owe you a new TV? No way.

That’s why I think a free detail, or s ervice , maybe even a gift card to a really nice restaurant would be appropriate. Along with sincere apologies of course.

I know it isn’t something we’ve talked about, and I still haven’t cli cked over to the front page for the story or video or whatever. But I have a thought on why this may have occurred in the first place. I’m wondering if the manager hired someone who couldn’t drive a stick, let’s call him technician A. Maybe the manager has a reputation for hiring underqualified people. Maybe the employees who can drive stick were starting to get sick of having to move cars for other people. Technician B is fed up with the manager’s shit, but sees that technician A has a good head on his shoulders. So he decides to teach him how to drive stick, and this guy’s car just happened to be most convenient, or the exact car that technician A  was originally trying to move.

I’m not saying it’s right. But I’ve seen this exact scenario before. Just generally not with customer cars.

pip bip - choose Corrour > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/08/2019 at 04:31

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new clutch.

Snuze: Needs another Swede > AMGtech - now with more recalls! 05/08/2019 at 13:52

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All good points. I appreciate your thoughtfulness and insight.

Re. virgin cars - what if you do one of those factory delivery deals where you get to drive your car right off the assembly line? :D

Also, I like your theory. Training is important but it’s often not billable so employers overlook it. I know this for a fact. The last job I worked at I left because they hired me to do powertrain work , and then for 3 years had me working on everything but. Their powertrain expert was an older guy and nearing retirement and they were bemoaning his loss because they didn’t have a replacement. I kept reminding them that they literally hired me to be his replacement, and everytime I was told “Well, we just don’t have enough billable work in that field to keep you and him busy. ” So how am I supposed to learn from him and take over his job like you hired me to do when you won’t let him train me?

AMGtech - now with more recalls! > Snuze: Needs another Swede 05/08/2019 at 15:07

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Ditto. I’ve enjoyed this exchange.

Good point! No idea about factory delivery since I’ve never done it. It seems strange to me that they wouldn’t do a QC inspection and test drive before allowing the client to take the vehicle.

Proper training and apprenticeships are a constant struggle, even in my shop which is an oasis in this industry.